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Dr. John Greer Clark – The Reality and Rehabilitation of Audibility

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Dr. John Greer Clark

Dr. John Greer Clark is an audiologist with notable contributions to his field over the past 40 years. He maintains a private practice in Middletown, Ohio and is on the faculty at the University of Cincinnati’s doctoral program. Additionally, he is a researcher and an author of multiple seminal audiology texts, including the popular textbook Introduction to Audiology.

Dr. Clark received his clinical training at the University of Texas at Austin and his doctorate at the University of Cincinnati where he continues to teach.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 

  • What is audibility and why can it never be fully restored?
  • The limitations of the ear and how it is measured
  • Finding the balance of audibility and hearing health
  • How to counsel a patient and their loved ones
  • Examining the family dynamic in relation to hearing loss
  • Key takeaways for practitioners concerning audibility

In this episode…

The term audibility is helpful as it gets to the root of the matter. Many people experience hearing loss, but understanding their ability to perceive sound is even more important than their physical capacity to hear. The two are deeply interconnected, but focusing on audibility can be helpful for those looking to tangibly help their patients.

Dr. John Greer Clark is an audiologist who wrote one of the foundational texts on audiology, Introduction to Audiology. He has worked in the educational, clinical, and research spaces, allowing him to understand the meeting point between the practical and the theoretical. This is what he has to say about audibility.

In this episode of the ListenUp! Podcast, Dr. Mark Syms talks with Dr. John Greer Clark about audibility, hearing loss, and how to be better practitioners. They discuss why hearing clarity can never be fully restored, counseling patients, the family dynamic of hearing loss, and the use of probe microphones.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by the Arizona Hearing Center.

The Arizona Hearing Center is a cutting-edge hearing care facility providing comprehensive, family-focused care. Approximately 36 million Americans suffer from some sort of hearing loss, more than half of whom are younger than the age of 65. That’s why the team at the Arizona Hearing Center is focused on providing the highest-quality care using innovative technologies and inclusive treatment plans. 

As the Founder of the Arizona Hearing Center, Dr. Mark Syms is passionate about helping patients effectively treat their hearing loss so that they can stay connected with their family and friends and remain independent. He knows first-hand how hearing loss can impact social connection and effective communication. By relying on three core values—empathy, education, and excellence—Dr. Syms and his team of hearing loss experts are transforming the lives of patients. 

So what are you waiting for? Stop missing out on the conversation and start improving your quality of life today!  

To learn more about the Arizona Hearing Center, visit or call us at 602-307-9919. We don’t sell hearing aids—we treat your hearing loss.

Episode Transcript

Intro  0:04  

Welcome to the ListenUp! Podcast where we explore hearing loss communication connections and health.

Dr. Mark Syms  0:10  

Hey everybody, Dr. Mark Syms here, I’m the host of the ListenUp! Podcast where I feature top leaders in healthcare. This episode is brought to you by Listen Up! Hearing Center, I help patients to effectively treat their hearing loss so that they can connect better with their friends and family remain independent. The reason I’m so passionate about helping patients is because I lost my brother Robbie twice, first from his hearing loss from radiation to his brain tumor. And then when he passed again passed away, I only care for ears and the ebmt. I’ve performed over 10,000 ear surgeries over the past 20 years and taking care of many more patients with hearing loss. I’m the founder of Arizona Hearing Center and Listen Up Hearing Center. I’ve also authored a book called Listen Up!: A Physician’s Guide to Effectively Treating Your Hearing Loss. If you want to learn more about that go to That’s Today I have a great guest it’s Dr. Greer Clark. He’s somebody who’s have made outstanding contributions to the field of audiology over the past 40 years through teaching research, clinical work, and the author of a seminal textbook. He received his clinical training at the University of Texas, Austin and his doctorate at University of Cincinnati. He’s a professor emeritus at University of Cincinnati and helps teach doctoral audiology candidates. Dr. Clark is an acceptable educators both a professor and author, his research and teaching focused on amplification, rehabilitation counseling and animal audiology. He’s an author of the book, which has had a direct impact on audiology education, and his well regarded top popular textbook introduction to audiology. He wrote that with Dr. Fred Martin, he’s helped move AUD education directly towards patient and family centered care. The impact of his work has been profound on the field of audiology and will be felt for a very long time when people kind of say, give me somebody wrote the book — Dr. Clark actually did. I’m excited to have him on this podcast. Dr. Clark, John, welcome to the show. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for coming on.

Dr. John Greer Clark  2:10  

So glad to be here.

Dr. Mark Syms  2:15  

That’s great. So tell me you know, I always want to know how people got into audiology. I mean, it’s a fascinating field. But what was your story? Like? How did you end up in this field?

Dr. John Greer Clark  2:27  

A roundabout way, you know, some people have stories or self-included family members, and that sort of thing that kind of guided them there. I was both went to in my undergraduate degree, because I enjoyed studying. But also it was something my family did my both my parents had. But I didn’t know what I was going to major in and I just lounge around and probably isn’t that part of the day took an introductory, introductory course to communication, science. Audio audiology section just kind of hit me and I said, this sounds interesting. And the more I got in the scene. Yeah, sounds great.

Dr. Mark Syms  3:09  

So you really stumbled into the field? And then so went all the way through. Got a PhD. So, went to the most advanced level at the time, correct?

Dr. John Greer Clark  3:19  

Correct. Yeah. Okay. And so,

Dr. Mark Syms  3:21  

I know you’ve been involved. And, you know, kind of my where I’ve learned about you is the introduction, audiology textbook, which I don’t know what edition is it in at this point?

Dr. John Greer Clark  3:30  

Yes. Starting on the 14th edition.

Dr. Mark Syms  3:34  

So there you go. So many, many editions. So and I, you know, have audiology students at my office and I’ve seen them carry it and look at it and reference it and we have a copy in our office as well. So one of the things I want to talk about is the concept of audibility. Can you explain to the audience what that term means? It’s not something necessarily used commonly to discuss hearing loss with patients. But can you talk about that concept?

Dr. John Greer Clark  4:03  

Yeah, I can try out abilities. audibility is what it sounds like. Things are audible to you. Things aren’t as part of those we’d like them to be. The biggest problem is here can’t tolerate restoration of audibility to the fullest extent. Your research basically shows that if you’ve got something backed up just we’re given numbers to loudness. Just like your numbers, the temperature, the loud air the number, and research shows that you can only restore about half of what was lost. If a person has a 60 decibel hearing loss, which is a fairly common among older adults, you could restrict the 30 decibels to a half way. What is 30 decibels mean? There isn’t In assignments, these diodes in students frustrated students, I think, but it’s native to the students in my ideological, excellent to go down to the clinic and get some industrial earplugs, and put them in their ear. And leave them in all day, just pick one day and wear them all day didn’t write a short essay on chance of doing that. Invariably, they would write about the frustrated as well as they’d like their family members or friends, were frustrated with them, are you happy? All day, people are complaining the TV was louder than they want it was social isolated, they would be invited to go out for the evening, they say, you know, I’m wearing these earplugs Can I do it all day. And I know I don’t hear that, well, I won’t enjoy myself, I’ll just stay home. And the words in the class we discussed, we talked about the fact that the earplugs gave, pretty possibly it sounds just are conducted into the hearing nerve that way they shouldn’t be that they’re fine. So they didn’t have any of the distortion that sounds can get that most of their patients have. Patients don’t have conductive hearing loss. So patients have the sensory neural nerve type hearing. And the earplugs only giving about a 20 decibel loss, which is the 30 decibel residual loss that the patients have if they have a 60 dB hearing loss. Past hearing aids possible, perfectly and verified. Those of you doing so from not ability standpoint, we can’t reach the levels who we want. Now, if you have a 60 decibel hearing loss and get improved a third decibel is not good, that is an amazing thing. People are doing much, much better, I always that’s sort of like if you’re hearing loss is an empty glass of water. If we fill that glass half way, if you’re thirsty, that’s, that’s great. It’s not hearing aids can do the same thing. Of course, we’re about halfway, that’s great and you’re much more full glasses more than we can do.

Dr. Mark Syms  7:15  

So is the limitation the technology the ear or both?

Dr. John Greer Clark  7:18  

That you’re primarily we can get the sound in there we’ll only tolerate begins to be uncomfortable. And a person will pretty you can crank it up as much as you want. They’re only gonna go up to restore about half of their hearing loss because it.

Dr. Mark Syms  7:38  

Can you develop tolerance to it? In other words, can you acclimate to the point where you can tolerate more gain?

Dr. John Greer Clark  7:44  

Yes or no? Um, usually, what is a great, great

Dr. Mark Syms  7:48  

academic answer, right? Exactly.

Dr. John Greer Clark  7:51  

Usually what’s ideal is to get as most benefit as you can or as audibility as you can, that’s going to top out at about half of the loss start out lower than that, that amount is too much for them even actually do need to build up. And they can successfully build up and get a tolerance to sell a house. So

Dr. Mark Syms  8:15  

Where does this fit in in terms of meeting targets with probe microphone measurements?

Dr. John Greer Clark  8:21  

as a probe microphone measurements as your listeners is just a measure may put a small microphone inside the ear and then put the hearing aid on and measure in the year and compare that loudness increase the boost to some targets for that degree of hearing loss. So how does it relate. But what many people recommend doing is you want to get the right pattern or the right amount of amplification and each pitch level for that shape of hearing loss hearing losses.

Dr. Mark Syms  8:56  

So going across the full spectrum of frequency, you want to get the same amount of gain from the hearing aid.

Dr. John Greer Clark  9:01  

Correct, or the appropriate amount for that loss. And so one trick is you may have very little loss, so you have very little gain, and a lot of lawsuits. More game there. So the important thing is to make whatever that shape is, but not hit the target, bring it lower the target so personally and get used to it and then gradually build it up. A lot of the newer hearing aids are both that you put it on target and hearing evil actually target and every time you close the battery door, which means every morning we put on the hearing aid a little bit until after two weeks. So whatever you set in the computer, three weeks or whatever, right where you want it to be.

Dr. Mark Syms  9:52  

Right, but in the end, if they hit targets, they’re still not there still a lot they’re not meeting full accountability. Is that correct?

Dr. John Greer Clark  10:00  

So I think this is the fact that there won’t tolerate a lot of color.

Dr. Mark Syms  10:04  

And what happens if you do set a hearing aid to? So if you want to, I mean, get to full audibility, right. In other words, if you have a, let’s say, a 50 dB loss, and you get the hearing aid to at that particular frequency, get them back up to within 10 dB abnormal with the amplification, what type of symptoms are what components do the patient have? Or

Dr. John Greer Clark  10:25  

what are the problems with that? Okay. Don’t get up to full liability. Yeah, well,

Dr. Mark Syms  10:34  

I mean, you know, it, most people think you just want to get to pull out ability, right? So what is it that stops that? I mean, it’s the patient complaints, or what is it that stops?

Dr. John Greer Clark  10:45  

patient complaints? If we probe to give full liability, more than half restoration? can say, I haven’t been wearing it. It’s too loud. For me, it’s uncomfortable. Background sounds my ear so that you bring it back down?

Dr. Mark Syms  11:05  

Right? Yeah, no, it’s interesting, because, you know, if you want to try to mitigate people’s hearing loss, obviously, you want to get as much audibility as possible. It’s absolutely what’s tolerable or what can you get to? Right, and so it but there’s not, is there a physiologic reason that you can’t get there? So what is the reason inside the cochlea that leads to that?

Dr. John Greer Clark  11:24  

It’s a physiological reason, the GM process that sound comfortably? Is the hair cell damage primarily in that recruitment or whatever it is. Comfortable aren’t pleasant. Sure, sure.

Dr. Mark Syms  11:47  

Now, it’s a really interesting topic, right? Because, you know, ultimately, you know, you don’t want to just give people devices, you want those devices to give the maximum amount of rehabilitation. And so defining or finding out what that is, is a fascinating topic for myself, for listeners, and people with hearing loss.

Dr. John Greer Clark  12:02  

You want them to get maximum ability to shuffle just want to be something they will use and not put in their dresser drawer because it wasn’t pleasant.

Dr. Mark Syms  12:12  

Yeah, no, I understand. It’s obviously that fine balance, because I think there’s, unfortunately a decent number of hearing aids that don’t have enough audibility as well. And that’s another reason why they end up in the nightstand drawer. And in all honesty, I think that might be more common than too much audibility. But that’s a bigger topic than you and I are going to tackle today on that they certainly is an issue. Yeah.

Dr. John Greer Clark  12:37  

So I mean, so few, so few people who dispense hearing aids with geologists or commercial hearing, oh, 50% of them do Pro Mic measures to verify that they have where it needs to be. And usually it’s set lower, because that’s what they say, can you turn it down a little bit? So it’s more comfortable? Okay, fine. But you got to talk to the person and say, it is we turn it down, you’re getting less and less benefit. Here’s where I need to be. So turn it down for the next week to get you up to it. No, I know.

Dr. Mark Syms  13:14  

I’m not sure. I think you’re being a little generous on the number of people using probe mic measurements. But I’ll leave it at that. Less than 50%. Yeah, and I think the other thing, obviously, is some of the, you know, as we call in the field, factory settings type of use that people use, certainly give people not enough audibility and the high ranges that they should, should, should want. And so, you know, the first fit concept is another issue that, you know, again, I think, is much bigger than this particular conversation. But, you know, one of the other things that, you know, as I was reading over the type of work is, you know, I think your work on counseling is wonderful. And you talk about, you know, or there’s this concept of family centered care. Can you explain to the listeners a little bit about what that means and what family centered care is?

Dr. John Greer Clark  14:03  

There’s an audiologist, he passed away a couple of years ago, age 90-something that he the fathers of audiologic rehabilitation, that was Dr. Mark Ross, and he said, Yes, a person in the family has. The entire family has a hearing problem. Yes, absolutely true. There’s a psychologist who’s now retired, who just loved hearing loss. Dr. Sam Trychin. Who when we should do away with the term hearing loss, yeah. Because they know that they’re gonna ever stop use the term hearing loss piece that we should talk about communication loss. We talk about hearing loss, the onus is on the person who has hearing loss or something wasn’t heard. During reality, it’s not their fault their speaker variables, there’s environmental variable to contribute to the fact the person didn’t hear.

Dr. Mark Syms  15:11  

Yeah, well, I mean, I think it’s a fascinating concept that, you know, one of the things I tell my patients is, oftentimes the reason they don’t perceive their hearing loss is because they communicate effectively despite their hearing loss. And so because they compensate with speech reading and contextual processing, as long as they have a good conversation, they don’t think they have a single problem. And so it’s their perception, correct? Well, I actually, you know, as an aside, I think patients are actually pretty poor at perceiving what their hearing loss is, right. So I mean, when you look at the surveys, you know, the handicaps and things like that they typically don’t correlate with the hearing test, meaning people’s perception of their impairment doesn’t correlate with the measurable impairment that you see. And I think a lot of that has to do with the brain’s amazing ability to compensate for hearing loss. And so, you know, you’re right. You know, I tell patients, and interestingly, the only people that are going to tell you that you have a hearing loss are the same people who tell you your fly’s down, meaning it’s only the people closer to you would actually say you have a hearing loss, and so I totally, and so when you talk about that, you know, obviously, that’s kind of how the hearing loss impacts the whole family, in terms of counseling, or bringing people in, how does that affect how you counsel, not just obviously, the patient, but the people around them.

Dr. John Greer Clark  16:29  

The people around them need to be doing surveys of audiologists, and many of them do not bring in the consultation room. When they do many of them. Set the side, they’re in the room listening, if you’re not actively at the table, right? It’s important to just start out and say you want to talk about hearing loss, and let me get the perception or with the hearing loss. And then I also want to hear from you. So that person knows that they’re going to be brought in. That’s important that that person who is a company, right? The person with the hearing loss is typically doing the can they are paying attention. I’d be rich man, if I could get given time, the family member was there and said, Well, he only hears what he wants to hear. Yeah, if you just pay attention, get it is paying attention. And it’s frustrating to them and hurtful to them. As you’re not really trying. It is important that the family member also recognize the concept and respite. Vigilance, being a person with hearing loss is extremely vigilant. Thanks. But if you’re out to dinner at a restaurant and you’re trying to have a conversation, you’re the one that’s exhausted from all that effort. Very possibly, your mind is going to drift? Yeah, just take a break. And that’s look at your safe. So you think Tom, I’m sorry, about what? I lost you there. So it’s very frustrating. So that person needs okay, my back. Yeah, there you go. Sorry. Okay. Okay. Sorry about that. And the family member needs to know, the mind will wander in some situations just briefly. US need to know that, while that’s normal, their responsibility is to pay attention as we can, and maybe recognize that they’re getting this exhaustion from listening for a moment and say you gotta go to the restroom or whatever. And just get away, take a break. Come back with the brain ready to try listening again.

Dr. Mark Syms  18:48  

Yeah, I mean, it’s so hard when you talk about you know, the first topic of audibility, and then background noise stressing you out in a restaurant, and then rapid social dialogue where your mouth, your eyes can’t keep up with the speaker. And the other issue, obviously, with social dialogue is the topic can wander, right? It can jump from thing to thing. So there’s not always a continuous thread to follow me. It’s definitely a challenging area. One of the other speakers. Yeah, we are or I mean, I tell most of my patients with hearing loss they’ll do perhaps okay with four people at a table. And then once you get over four people, you get to conversations and it becomes really, really, really difficult for them. And so, kind of if they are coupled off a couple, you know, one other couple for dinner is probably ideal. And then anything more than that really gets owners and that’s why family get-togethers are so difficult, right? Because there’s many, many people around me. The other thing I always find interesting is, is some of my patients who talk about how their spouse y’know, mumbles and I always love that it’s like, Well, were they a mumbler when you marry them? No, I mean, what turned them and that’s obviously the hearing loss patient’s perspective on how their spouse speaks. So it’s definitely dynamic. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, moving people to taking care of the whole family or talking about the whole family is essential in terms of the loss itself, right? Because it impacts everyone.

Dr. John Greer Clark  20:18  

Yeah. Last need to be doing something getting hearing aids and also learning styles of the person talking to that individual. These learn some things as well. And, and introduced to some of this.

Dr. Mark Syms  20:32  

Yeah, you mean that you can’t have a conversation with your back at the washing dishes at the sink with a hearing impaired person and expect them to be able to have a conversation with you?

Dr. John Greer Clark  20:42  

Exactly. You can’t stick your head in the refrigerator and say, What do you want for dinner?

Dr. Mark Syms  20:47  

Yeah, no, it’s it’s a, it’s a really interesting thing. And obviously, there are age-related things too, right? You know, obviously, older spouses are perhaps a little more patient. I always it’s fascinating the impact on grandchildren, and how kind of brutally honest they are about a grandma or grandpa and how well they hear. Family dynamic, right? High-pitch grandchildren, high-pitched voice grandchildren who aren’t the most patient about the fact that grandma grandpa can’t hear.

Dr. John Greer Clark  21:14  

hear. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Mark Syms  21:17  

And so in that field, how have you seen it move along over your time and expertise within? So when you first, you know, over the years, how has that got kind of worked its way into the practice of audiology, working on the family dynamic communication dynamic?

Dr. John Greer Clark  21:29  

Unfortunately, not as well as it should. In the early days of the profession, the appalling depression really kind of got its roots. It was very heavily centered in audiology. And learning how to compensate for what the hearing aid wasn’t doing, and helping a member compensate as well. And learning those things, and is hearing aids got that kind of fell by the wayside. It also fell by the wayside, I believe, because audiology moved away from the rehab aspect of hearing, beginning of with behavioral side of lesion tests to help begin to diagnose what is the problem conductive sensory neural, there ended up with impedance measures and electrophysiological measures, acoustic emissions all what it was, and we kind of drifted that way and left the rehab, kind of coming back to that a little bit. But slowly, a survey a few years ago with a student at University of Cincinnati, audiologists on how often they provide communication congestions to patients, is much lower than we would have liked. And then, of course, another problem is when suggestions, often what we do is we give them a list of suggestions, so you know, the hearing aid aid, they’re not going to restore hearing completely, you’ll still have some problems, but these suggestions before you would give that to them. But they don’t work that way. Factor Brene Brown, who is renowned vulnerability research on said that belonging I forget the exact word she said, belonging, our fitting in, in other words we want to belong is because of our desire to belong? Well, because we want to be like everybody else, we don’t want to point out our differences. We don’t want to have a list of communication suggestion and say, I need you to do this, because I am different. I have a hearing loss. Can you do this, we want to point out our hearings. So don’t use those things, unless they’re presented to the patient and a family member. From a motivational engagement standpoint, how important is it to you to do this very important? How comfortable? Are you saying? Can you move away from this voice source with me and come over here to talk? You know, find out hearing loss? And then why are you uncomfortable with that conversation? Don’t take long and doing that makes a world of difference as far as an application to it?

Dr. Mark Syms  24:22  

Yeah, it seems definitely the strategies work better when you’re asking them to implement them with family members than they do in a social context. Right, because people, you know, part of socializing is minimizing drawing attention to certain things and kind of having a get along attitude, right? Not, you know, Oh, you wanna have a conversation with me, you have to do these four things that I need you to do so I can have a conversation. Unfortunately, most people kind of be like, Yeah, appreciate it. Was there somebody else at this cocktail party I can talk to?

Dr. John Greer Clark  24:52  

You right, right, right. Yeah, there’s that recent book, I did a little consumer guide called Hearing to the Max. There’s stories in there, one of them is about a gentleman that I had told you, when you go out to dinner with friends, they all know you have hearing loss already, why not just start out by saying, I’m going to give you two signs, and I need these. If I go like this means speak up a bit, I’m not getting it by go like this, it means slow down a bit. You’re going too fast. And then I asked him, How comfortable you’d be doing that? Not at all. No way. But there’s some discussion, he realized, you know, he’s gonna stop going out with this group, because he can’t hear is that better than at least introducing this? And what are the other people gonna do? roll their eyes, open it up from the table and say, Don’t come back next time? We haven’t? Yeah.

Dr. Mark Syms  25:39  

What they do is they struggle through it. And then the next time when they’re driving home with their wife, they say, you know, I like them, but it’s too much work. And I get tired repeating myself. So next time they ask us to dinner, let’s say maybe not. And that’s like, it’s a much more subtle disconnection than actually tackling your, your hearing loss. So no, I mean, I think that’s a really great point in terms of it. And, you know, I have some patients who actually have badges that say, you know, I have a hearing loss, they obviously hugging? And, you know, obviously, I think some of that has to do with the personality with which they entered into having the hearing loss. Right. So some of the more forward gregarious, comfortable people and, you know, I mean, unfortunately, hearing loss is like, really terrible for somebody who’s already shy.

Dr. John Greer Clark  26:26  

Well, absolutely, yeah.

Dr. Mark Syms  26:30  

I mean, not that it’s not terrible for everybody, but it just compounds the shine.

Dr. John Greer Clark  26:33  

Absolutely. And, it takes more time with that patient to help them learn how to assert themselves. And it’s okay to assert yourself. I’m not an assertive person, I remember the first time I went out to dinner with my wife, when we were dating, and she sent her steak back to the kitchen because it wasn’t cooked, right, and I wouldn’t eat. Some people just naturally are more certain that those that aren’t served can be trained to speak up for what they need.

Dr. Mark Syms  26:59  

So you now get your steak done correctly?

Dr. John Greer Clark  27:01  

I do. I will say something now, bear in mind example.

Dr. Mark Syms  27:05  

Sounds like it worked out. So that’s wonderful. And so you know, if there was any takeaway from from a practitioner point of view, you know, what would you say in terms of this topic? Like, what are the things people really need to keep in mind? From the practitioner point of view? And me because by and large, the practitioner point of view, is the patient point of view, if that makes sense? Like, patients get what we do, like if you say, what practitioners should do patients go, oh, yeah, that’s what my practitioners told me to do. Right,

Dr. John Greer Clark  27:34  

right. Well, number one, we bring in the family member, make sure they’re actively involved in sitting at the table, and you’re trying them out and getting their opinions. Talk to them about the limitations of hearing aids, and what they can do as a spouse to improve that, and what the person with hearing loss can do to help that residual deficit, and talking about comfort level those things and work them through that.

Dr. Mark Syms  28:01  

Yeah, no, I think, you know, that’s, you know, not to from a timeliness point of view. I think the over the counter discussion with hearing aids is kind of turned out to be a little bit like Y2K and the concerns about information technology. But that being said, contextually what we’re talking about, like, the these are the things that, you know, people who are trying to self treat their hearing loss are just never going to get right. And and I think that’s a huge part of what professional support can do for people to really get them to function as best as possible. Right. Everybody has a coach, Tom Brady had a coach, I mean, every coach, everybody has a coach. Right. Right. Right. This has been great. Let me ask you a question. You know, what’s your favorite sound? Water?

Dr. John Greer Clark  28:50  

Not watering the seat, but the waves being by the ocean? Find it very relaxing, and sort of a back to nature? Yeah, no, I agree.

Dr. Mark Syms  29:02  

100%. And, ironically, I think we both are landlocked people.

Dr. John Greer Clark  29:08  

So well, we didn’t move further east and I will be about an hour and a half away from the ocean. Okay, so

Dr. Mark Syms  29:13  

you Well, there you go, Man less landlocked, but that that’s not so? Well, this has been great. You know, you’re working on writing, it sounds like and if people want to get get in touch with you, how would they do that?

Dr. John Greer Clark  29:28  

And again, touch with me by email if they wanted to email addresses All right. That’s great.

Dr. Mark Syms  29:41  

And so, you know, this has been a really great conversation. To have this, you know, with us, and, you know, this is Dr. John Greer Clark. He’s the author of introduction to audiology and he’s done a lot of great work and I really appreciate you sharing your perspective on really important topics audibility and patient patient centered counseling, which I think are really two. You know, I know you’ve written most many books about patient counseling, we’ve just really scratched the surface on it. I don’t know if you’re working on more books, but I do know you’re working on the 14th edition of Introduction to Audiology, which is wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It’s been great exploring this topic that you’re clearly passionate about, and I’m passionate about this has been

Dr. John Greer Clark  30:25  

wonderful. I’ve enjoyed it very much. Thank you very much, Dr. Syms. It’s been great. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Outro  30:35  

Thanks for tuning in to the ListenUp! Podcast. We’ll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get updates on future episodes.

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