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Dr. Drew Dundas – The Need for Treatment and Hearing Aids

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Dr. Drew Dundas

Dr. Drew Dundas is an audiologist, scientist, and the Chief Technology Officer for the Earlens Corporation. At Earlens, Dr. Dundas leads their research and technological innovation as they continue to improve their state-of-the-art hearing aids. He has been with the company for over five years, starting as the Director of Audiological Technology and Innovation before transitioning to the Vice President of Audiology & Product Strategy and his role today as the CTO. 

Across almost 20 years, Dr. Dundas has worked in many capacities in the audiology industry. He has served as the President and Chief Technical Officer for Soundhawk as well as the Director of Audiology at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF). He received his PhD in audiology and biomedical engineering from Vanderbilt University, where he also served as a Staff Audiologist in their medical center.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 

  • Dr. Drew Dundas talks about the research he conducted at Starkey Hearing Technologies
  • The main takeaways from studying different hearing aid fittings
  • Maintaining a range of dynamics in hearing aids
  • Why audiology tests are not up to standard
  • The value of hearing aids versus proper hearing treatment
  • Dr. Dundas discusses neuroplasticity and why receiving consistent treatment matters

In this episode…

While hearing aids are a crucial piece of the better hearing puzzle, they’re not the only thing that matters. So much goes into our hearing that factory settings alone cannot fix the problem. Even with more effective hearing aids being manufactured, they are still not enough to compensate for most cases of hearing loss. 

Proper treatment requires doctors with hands-on experience to know what you need. They are the only ones that will be able to accurately and truly know the extent of your hearing loss. But just how essential is that additional treatment?

On this episode of the ListenUp! podcast, Dr. Mark Syms invites back Dr. Drew Dundas, the Chief Technology Officer of the Earlens Corporation, to learn about how treatment and hearing aids go hand in hand. The two discuss the most recent research and what it says about the current state of hearing loss care. They then go further into the science of hearing aids, why most devices are incorrectly tuned, and how the issue can be fixed.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by the Arizona Hearing Center.

The Arizona Hearing Center is a cutting-edge hearing care facility providing comprehensive, family-focused care. Approximately 36 million Americans suffer from some sort of hearing loss, more than half of whom are younger than the age of 65. That’s why the team at the Arizona Hearing Center is focused on providing the highest-quality care using innovative technologies and inclusive treatment plans. 

As the Founder of the Arizona Hearing Center, Dr. Mark Syms is passionate about helping patients effectively treat their hearing loss so that they can stay connected with their family and friends and remain independent. He knows first-hand how hearing loss can impact social connection and effective communication. By relying on three core values—empathy, education, and excellence—Dr. Syms and his team of hearing loss experts are transforming the lives of patients. 

So what are you waiting for? Stop missing out on the conversation and start improving your quality of life today!  

To learn more about the Arizona Hearing Center, visit https://www.azhear.com/ or call us at 602-307-9919. We don’t sell hearing aids—we treat your hearing loss.

Episode Transcript

Intro  0:04  

Welcome to the ListenUp! podcast where we explore hearing loss communication connections and health.

Dr. Mark Syms  0:10  

Hey everybody, Dr. Mark Syms here I’m the host of the ListenUp! podcast where I feature top leaders in health care. This episode is brought to you by Arizona Hearing Center, I help patients to effectively treat their hearing loss so they can be better connected with their loved ones and remain independent. The reason I’m so passionate about hearing loss is I lost my brother Robbie twice first to hearing loss from radiation to his brain tumor and then later he succumbed to complications from that. I am the EMT, I only treat yours I’ve performed over 10,000 surgeries in my career, and I’ve taken care of 1000s of patients with hearing loss. I’m the author of a book of Listen Up: A Physician’s Guide to Effectively Treating Your Hearing Loss. If you want to learn more about that go to www.listenuphearing.com and in terms of my clinical practice you can go to www.azhear.com we have a repeat guest here. It’s Dr. Drew Dundas. He is the Chief Technology Officer at Earlens. He obtained his audiology and biomedical engineering PhD at Vanderbilt University, and he had a Master’s from the University of Akron. He is an excellent person to talk about hearing aids and rehabilitation and some of the concepts of why there are different things you need to do and why people need to be more aggressive about treating their hearing loss. He’s a good friend of mine, and I really appreciate him coming on. Drew, thanks for coming onto the show.

Dr. Drew Dundas  1:34  

Pleasure to be here again, Mark. Thanks for having me. 

Dr. Mark Syms  1:37  

So, you know, we were talking and have talked before about hearing aids and where people are and in terms of treatment and and I know that you’ve had many hats, right, you are a research head of research at Starkey. Is that what you were or?

Dr. Drew Dundas  1:51  

I was a research audiologist.

Dr. Mark Syms  1:53  

It’s a research cardiologists who Starkey for some of the listeners Starkey’s is one of the it’s the only American based hearing aid manufacturer, major manufacturer. And so you had shown me a poster presentation that you did. Can you talk a little bit about the research and what the research found? It’s fascinating. I know, I’ve asked you some questions about it. But but just kind of give us a big overview about that research.

Dr. Drew Dundas  2:15  

Yeah, absolutely. A colleague of mine, Adrian Lister and I were really interested in understanding more about what people did when with devices when they were fitting them for patients. So what did clinicians actually do? We were particularly interested in deriving new fitting algorithms, with the thinking being very manufacturer specific that ideally you want to start that person out with a fitting that is going to be acceptable to them, that is going to provide them with good sound quality and is going to provide them with benefit. from the manufacturer standpoint, those things might have different weightings than they might for the for the clinician or for the patient, you know, the patient would obviously like to have maximum benefit with maximum sound quality and maximum acceptability. But sometimes you have to balance those things out a little bit. There were several different academically developed fitting algorithms for hearing loss that were really sort of commonly used in the hearing industry at the time that we publish this, this poster at the international conference for hearing, it’s up at Lake Tahoe. And those algorithms have different underlying ideas behind them. But the idea for any fitting algorithm is that you want to prescribe the amount of gain or amplification, as well as compression within each of the different frequency regions of the cochlea to help to most effectively and comfortably and naturally sounding compensate for the hearing loss that the individual has in each of those regions. different algorithms have different underlying philosophies, they have different underlying assumptions and manufacturer algorithms generally try to lean more towards more, make sure that the fittings acceptable, right, minimize returns for credit. That’s the business imperative. While you know making sure that there’s some benefit, but make sure that the hearing aid doesn’t turn into a boomerang and come right back to you. What we were really interested in was figuring out if we looked at these four different types of bidding algorithms, what were the changes that were being made and in What direction were those changes made as a function of degree and configuration of hearing loss. And what we actually end up ended up finding when we examined the data that had been pulled back from over a million hearing aid fittings. Yeah, was the hearing aid fittings were not being changed from the initial prescription by more than typically about two dB. And more than 90% of all the fittings that were done, were being done with the manufacturer’s fitting algorithm. So you on the one hand, you had these academically verified and validated fitting algorithms that we know give patients better audibility, which is the key concept, right, make things Audible, then your brain will figure out what to do with it. And on the other hand, you had this algorithm that nobody really knows what goes into it. And it could change from this week to next week, with no notice, no warning, no explanation. But 90 plus percent of the fittings were being done with the manufacturer, one because that was the default that came up when you clicked best fit. So you had this idea of the patient coming in, spending a bunch of money on getting what they thought was a treatment plan, and the professional would put the audio gram in and click best fit today. Well, how’s that sound? How does that person know what it’s supposed to sound like? They have hearing impairment, right, they’re adapting to something new. And so this was a real shock to us. And we’re were the places where we noticed that there were the biggest variations, in terms of the fitting changes from Target, were when people were using a particular algorithm that was used for pediatric fittings, which makes a lot of sense, because those types of things are the ones that are most likely to be verified using probe microphone measurements and graduating. Yeah, so. So that was an interesting study, but also a kind of disappointing one, when you think about how much variability there is in the sound pressure level, it’s achieved in a person’s ear, depending upon how big their ear is, how long the cable is, which type of receiver or speaker is used, what the venting characteristics of the ear mold are, to think that those changes were to dp was incredibly disappointing. Because it just means that for roughly half of the people, you’re probably over amplifying in some frequency regions. And for the other half of the people you’re probably under.

Dr. Mark Syms  8:00  

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, my big thing is, I always tell my patients, you know, there’s a difference between a seller of hearing aids and a treater of hearing loss. And, you know, unfortunately, many people go to sellers of hearing aids, right, and they’re not actually getting care, and they’re not getting a custom prescription. So for the listeners, for my perspective, the prescription is what you receive, programming is what you do, right? And because sometimes, I asked people do they program and programming is not necessarily just hooking it up to the computer programming is actually perhaps doing custom changes. So you get a custom prescription for your ear, which is, I think, what you’re talking about.

Dr. Drew Dundas  8:38  

Right, and so you achieve that prescription, and have verified that you have achieved that.

Dr. Mark Syms  8:45  

Yeah, it’s a it’s a, so I was pretty, you know, as you know, I was interested in seeing the study, just because that’s kind of looking behind the curtain, if you will. And so, you know, one of the other things that people should understand is, is the high cones are particularly people are sensitive when they are first exposed to them initially. And so people should think of it like, you know, when you go from a dark room to bright light, of course, the bright light bothers your eyes. And so if people learn to, like, take you out of a dark room and put a flashlight in your eyes, they say, is that too bright? Everybody would say it’s too bright, the answer is not as too bright. When you come out of the darkness. The answer is is too bright. You know, it’s 90 days later when you’re no longer in the darkness. Right. So it’s that concept?

Dr. Drew Dundas  9:25  

Yeah. And I think that that’s particularly true when you’re focusing all of the amplification in one frequency region. Some of the nodes usually, right, right. Right. And, and because of the way that the we tend to fit as in coupled devices to people’s ears with open fit devices nowadays. Yeah, it becomes very difficult to balance the stridency of those high frequency sounds with a bass response. And because of the way that our cochlea actually integrates energy to Allow us to perceive loudness. When we are only providing predominantly more amplification in the high frequencies to achieve a perception of loudness, I’m getting something from this, we end up messing up that frequency distribution between the lows and the highs. 

Dr. Mark Syms  10:20  

Do you explain that I prefer a armchair a pseudo person who knows anything about that I don’t really that’s why I’m asking you that. 

Dr. Drew Dundas  10:30  

So let’s, let’s step back a second and think about someone playing a nice piece of music on a piano keyboard. A well trained and talented pianist will make use of the the chords in the base to support the melody that’s carried in the high frequencies or the high high pitched keys. Whereas your brother’s toddler who’s pounding away on only the high keys going being being being being being or playing Twinkle, twinkle little star is not a particularly pleasant experience. And it can be rather jarring, right? If you combine the high frequencies with the low frequencies, the way that our cochlea and our brain processes, the energy that’s present, allows us to achieve a bigger are louder representation of overall loudness with less overall amplification. Whereas if we only were providing energy and the high frequencies, you have to provide a lot of it to be able to get that overall perception of loudness up to a normal level. Interesting. Yeah, I

Dr. Mark Syms  11:50  

never really thought about it. But it’s the pleasant pleasantness of having the whole frequency spectrum, I think is if I can boil it down to my simplistic understanding.

Dr. Drew Dundas  11:59  

Yeah, yeah. And I think that a lot of the research, the answer of conventional wisdom about fitting adjusting hearing aids for people has been sort of handicapped by the limitations of the technology. And in that, you know, you have a limited bandwidth of frequencies over which you can provide really useful audibility for speech level sounds. And so in order to achieve the perception of normal loudness, for someone with hearing impairment, you, as well as providing good speech intelligibility or understanding ability, you have to emphasize certain frequencies. And this can lead to that a further disruption of that overall balance of things that people with normal hearing don’t experience.

Dr. Mark Syms  12:53  

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s fascinating stuff in terms of all of these differences, and, and what people experience that I mean, you know, one of the other things that’s kind of like, built into the industry that people don’t realize is how, you know, you’re talking about return rates, you know, I have a substantial number of patients who have either low end of normal or very mild hearing losses have been told by many people, they shouldn’t get hearing aids. And some of them are the most fast, most satisfied users, right. And the thing is, is some of the providers don’t even realize they’re not doing it because they’re afraid of a return. So they’ve been trained, don’t try to fit that because they’re likely to return, which is actually kind of ironic, because they do better. And you know, I talked to Ryan McCreery at Boys Town, and he, you know, the evidence is getting pretty clear that even low within normal limit hearing loss as a pretty significant functional impairment. So it’s kind of ironic that the, the industry is actually in some ways perpetuating non treatment of things that should be treated and can be easily treated.

Dr. Drew Dundas  13:56  

Yeah, no, I agree with you. And this whole idea of hidden hearing loss, right, or subclinical hearing loss is a really interesting one. That is this really kind of exacerbated by the fact that our diagnostic tests are only detection of pure tones, right, which is not an ecologically valid test in any way, shape, or form.

Dr. Mark Syms  14:21  

An arbitrarily picking certain frequency ranges to skip. Right, right.

Dr. Drew Dundas  14:25  

Yeah. And it’s a it’s a classification tool, in my mind, that is a useful predictor of how you might want to prescribe medication in order to achieve a normalization of loudness in each frequency band, but it’s not really a true quantification of the individual’s hearing experience. 

Dr. Mark Syms  14:52  

Yeah, so the, you know, again, I’m a simple guy, I try to analogize I said, The thing I always tell people is like the audiogram is like an EKG, right? It tells you Is the ear healthy or not? Right? The EKG tells you is the heart healthy or not, and gives you some suggestion what’s going on. But if you want a functional test, you do a stress test. And so if you want a functional testing ear, you do a testing or something like that, where you’re really trying to do speech and noise with a binomial benefit with instrumentation. To me, that’s really figuring out how people hear. 

Dr. Drew Dundas  15:20  

Yeah, no, I’m not that kind of doctor on the EKG thing. But I totally with you on the the functional sort of environmental testing, right, like understanding what is the benefit that’s actually being realized for this individual? And what is the value of some of the signal processing techniques that might be applied for that person, environmental noise reduction, directional microphone technology, venting versus not venting, the fitting, all of these things can have a big impact on the overall performance that the person achieves.

Dr. Mark Syms  15:56  

Yeah I know? And that’s it, is there such an art to really getting people to maximum benefit. And so, you know, what I really leads to which, you know, when I first started, you know, doing my own personal deep dive and this what alarmed me was that only 20% of people were treating, hearing their hearing loss as well. So only one in five people who should get their hearing loss treated. And so that, to me, is a problem. But the other one is what we’re kind of alluding to is okay, so you take 100 people, 20 of them have hearing treatment? Well, it seems to me, even if those 20, maybe 15 or more actually are undertreated are not adequately or appropriately treated. So it’s not just the people who don’t have hearing aids, which is a problem in and of itself that we have to tackle, but even the people who have hearing aids, and I think that’s somewhat worse, because they actually think they’re treating it when they’re not. Right, like,

Dr. Drew Dundas  16:48  

You know, yeah, that’s that’s a fair point. And there was another statistic that came out a few years ago from the American Academy of Audiology, looking at fitting practices that what are the actual gold standards of practice, and I, you know, you and I would laugh about the term gold standard, because really, it means it’s what everybody else does, not necessarily what the best thing is, but I’m trying to use it in the in the from the perspective of what’s the best thing to do so.

Dr. Mark Syms  17:22  

So ideal standards or best practices.

Dr. Drew Dundas  17:25  

It would be to use a validated hitting target, and match to that target. Using a real ear probe microphone says that we are actually measuring the sound pressure level at the eardrum, and only about 20 to 25% of providers were using real ear measures, not using it all the time. And they don’t use it all the time. That’s right. So they might use it at a first bit. But then they make a whole bunch of changes and never check to see what came of it, which is, again, kind of disappointing is to be kind of like going to the up the wall, adjust your optometrist, and they go through and they test your vision very extensively, both using the depth protect table and also doing the astigmatism tests and the glaucoma tests and things. And then the next time you come back to them, they just say, well, so So how are you seeing? Right? Well, not great. Oh, well, um, no, we can we can make the prescription a little stronger. 

Dr. Mark Syms  18:34  

Yeah, I have to say, I mean, I’ve even through my clinical practice, maybe I’m over to the other side. I just basically tell patients, I don’t think you can perceive your own hearing loss. I just don’t think people are. I mean, I don’t know if there’s studies out there of what people think their hearing loss and what they really, it really is. But people underestimate their hearing loss by far. So if they can’t do that, there’s no way for that they really should be able to assess how well they’re rehabilitated. So I think a lot of people have hearing aids, and it’s less bad, if that makes sense rather than good.

Dr. Drew Dundas  19:05  

Yeah, I don’t remember if we talked about the last time I was on the show, but my dissertation was actually looking at people’s confidence in their responses when they were in difficult listening situations.

Dr. Mark Syms  19:19  

Did we talk about that? I didn’t go too deep in it. 

Dr. Drew Dundas  19:21  

But yeah, so it was really interesting to see that individuals with hearing impairment tended to report greater confidence in their response than their performance would suggest.

Dr. Mark Syms  19:33  

Right? And so so the analogy I use is going to blood pressure, right, like so if your blood pressure is 210 or 110. And then we give you a blood pressure pill, you could say it’s treated like getting hearing aids, but if it’s 160 or 90, it’s treated. It’s just not well treated. And people understand that numerically. And so it’s got it that’s why you have to measure it, right? Like interestingly, if you went to your primary care doctor, they said, Hey, Drew you, you have high blood pressure, I’m going to give you a pill and you never got it measured again. They never checked it again. And they left you on that bill in perpetuity. You think they’re a quack you you would you’d never go back. So it’s kind of fascinating that the consumer doesn’t patient doesn’t understand that that’s essentially what’s happening to them. On the hearing aid side.

Dr. Drew Dundas  20:14  

Yeah. Well, it also points to a deficiency in the way that we in the I’ll say the entire medical industry have kind of communicated about the value of the device versus the value of the expertise of the credit service side. I agree. 1000. Yeah. And we, you know, we bundled pricing so that people can compare easily and shop here, shop there. Oh, I got really cheap hearing aids at big box store x. Well, congratulations, I hope you picked up some toilet paper along the way, right?

Dr. Mark Syms  20:49  

And the fire TV.

Dr. Drew Dundas  20:50  

Yeah, and a flat screen TV and maybe a rotisserie chicken. But did you actually get your money’s worth, in terms of actually addressing the problems that you went in there for, versus going to a true professional clinician, like yourself, or like many of the others that we know in the community who are so focused on finding out what problems and goals the patient is experiencing at, you know, how they want to address those, and finding the solution that really best meets their needs and demonstrating that benefit through applying their expertise, right. And we were chatting about this earlier, but there’s all of this data that’s floating around and starting to become more obvious in the in the media, as well as in the general scientific literature about this link between untreated hearing impairment and demand, cognitive decline and dementia. But there’s less data out there about how it’s treated. I think that some people assume Well, I got some hearing aids. So I’ve solved that problem headed that one off, everything’s good here. But there is starting to be some very interesting and highly directional data coming out that would suggest that how you treat that loss matters a lot. And efficacy or effectiveness of that treatment is driven by audibility, and the functional bandwidth that can be achieved for the listener. So how broad or range of pitches are they able to hear, based on you know, with them without the device and there was a paper that was published out of Anu Sharma, his lab at the University of Colorado that’s looking at neural plasticity. So changes in the brain tend now to to record and the association areas that are attached to the auditory cortex in individuals with hearing loss. And they were able to show using functional MRI, though an actual measurement of the functioning of the brain in response to sound stimuli, that people who had been without amplification for a long time had changes in the functioning of their brain and those areas, it just didn’t light up anymore in response to sound when they were fit with well fit hearing that actually provided them with audibility, and those frequency ranges, over time with repeated MRIs, you could see that those areas were starting to be reignited, you know, they’re lighting up again.

Dr. Mark Syms  24:03  

What was the timeline on that? Do you recall? 

Dr. Drew Dundas  24:05  

I realize that right, I would have to go back to the paper, but several months, right.

Dr. Mark Syms  24:09  

And so that’s actually one of the things people have to understand. Like, it’s not this is not uploading an app, you’re not putting an app on your head, you have to adapt and takes time.

Dr. Drew Dundas  24:18  

Yeah. And and it’s Think of it as a dimmer switch. It’s not an on off switch, right, you need to repeatedly reexpose those areas to the stimulate to reinforce the connections between the neurons in the brain. And so, over time, they showed essentially a return to normal functioning in those areas that had previously gone dark, and we’re not responding to the south. What was really interesting was they wondered, well, is it just a matter of having hearing aids and is this person engaging in more situations it You know, are there other factors of play here. So they looked at a group of patients who had here were fit with hearing aids, but didn’t have wealth, that device. They didn’t have the audibility and those frequency regions. And they didn’t have the changes either. 

Dr. Mark Syms  25:19  

So even if they were more social, or all those, it controlled for everything, and really what you’re basically saying, if you really got to get the blood pressure down to 120, over 80, not still have some mild hypertension by using my example.

Dr. Drew Dundas  25:31  

That’s right, you not only need to buy something, but you need to have it set up appropriately for you. It’s treatment. It’s not just the device.

Dr. Mark Syms  25:43  

Yeah, yeah. And so you know, one of the things when I talk to patients I think they really get is, you know, Home Repair and Craftsman I say, you know, we can all get a bunch of bricks and mortar dumped in our backyard, but the mason builds the wall. And you know, really, it doesn’t matter, man, a bad mason with great bricks is not going to get you a great wall, no man.

Dr. Drew Dundas  26:02  

And laying bricks is really hard.

Dr. Mark Syms  26:04  

Dry. It seems like it’s easy, but it’s actually hard to get them level and get the mortar to look right. And actually really hard. I agree. I actually have watched and tried a little and I actually did take the project on myself. By Yeah, and so it actually kind of all ties together, right? So you have to treat your hearing loss to help your cognition. But you need the hearing devices fit well. And so I mean, it really kind of circles all around to, you know, and this is why I was wanted to talk to you is that poster because I was you know, to be frank with you, I was blown away by how many people I quote patients that it’s 80%, or factory settings, but I think it probably is 85 or 90% of factory settings. And so, you know, I think the other comment is, is, you know, as you and I both know, what otcs are over the counter hearing devices are coming. And at some point, why would you pay for somebody to give you factory settings when you can just get the factory settings yourself? Right. And so those people really, you know, we really need to people want to continue in this field, they need to step up their game and make sure that people are truly treated. 

Dr. Drew Dundas  27:09  

Yeah, I entirely agree with you. I think that they’re we’re kind of at a crossroads now. Where the technology has progressed enough that you can provide people with at least a decent listening experience, if not optimized benefit with devices that don’t require a lot of intervention. And that is kind of sad. Because it turns out, not optimized and, you know, frankly, substandard into the going expectation, right?

Dr. Mark Syms  27:53  

High Performance if they know it’s available, and it matters some here, right?

Dr. Drew Dundas  27:57  

Yeah. Until we have the ability to both assess an individual’s hearing in a meaningful way. As well as measure the response of that device when it’s coupled to your unique anatomy. However, those devices will remain essentially the equivalent of your trumpet. No one size fits done. And we will see how the how the industry evolves. But I think that right now, it’s very clear to everyone who has a background in hearing background in medicine, have background in medical devices, that there’s a reason why devices that are provided through a professional are more expensive, but also why they’re more valuable. 

Dr. Mark Syms  28:59  

Right. I agree. 100%. And, you know, I think there’s a lot of pressures coming right now, loader, OTC. And so in a lot of ways, this will probably separate out the people who are giving, you know, you’re going to have to demonstrate that you’re really elevating people’s audition or hearing to warrant that. And I mean, that’s everywhere, right? I mean, you really have to deliver, not just convinced people that you deliver. I mean, that’s where I’ve just really come to believe that you need objective measures to demonstrate things. I mean, I tell you a very close person to me. He had died of complications of high blood pressure, and I asked him, Why didn’t you treat your blood pressure? And you know what his answer was? I felt fine. Right. So the point was, he didn’t believe that the objective evidence of the high blood pressure actually existed. And so it’s kind of interesting, the same from a hearing point of view. We measure things and we treat them to the point where they’re treated adequately, not just what you believe to be adequate. 

Dr. Drew Dundas  29:53  

Yeah. That’s a good point. 

Dr. Mark Syms  29:57  

Well, this has been really great Drew, you know, this is it. topic that I, you know, I wanted to explore and talk about, and they have talked in it and really is, I think important to everybody to understand where the current state of hearing aids and I know some point we’ll get together and talk about why Earlens is different. And, you know, talk about that. It’s a great technology. And I think, you know, watching this and then watching the next episode of why Earlens are different will give people in a pretty amazing picture of the differences and why it might be something that they want to consider and why I’m involved in it. Because I know audio logically, it does a lot for people, but I really appreciate you coming Drew people, I always ask this. Oh, actually my one question I asked everybody, what’s your favorite sound?

Dr. Drew Dundas  30:40  

Oh, I think it’s Jimmy Page’s guitar or a version 911 with Rhys mufflers.

Dr. Mark Syms  30:47  

Oh, there you go. those are those are some pretty good. Well, the reason I asked you for that is because imagine, you know, for anybody as you have that passionate about it, what if that wasn’t in your life anymore? Right. And that’s, that’s hearing loss, right? When those things that you love are no longer there. Right. And, and the worst part is, you don’t even realize they’re not there anymore.

Dr. Drew Dundas  31:04  

Yeah, but and how they’ve degraded over time. It’s a It’s a sad, insidious loss. But it’s something that we can address and make a huge difference in people’s lives.

Dr. Mark Syms  31:15  

They’re great. And frankly, I wouldn’t have this podcast if I didn’t think that that was the case. I mean, that’s really kind of the thrust of the podcast and the book. And so it drives as well. How do people get ahold of you if they want to get ahold of you, Earlens, his website, I assume?

Dr. Drew Dundas  31:27  

Yeah. Through your lens, his website www.earlens.com is the easiest way to get ahold of us and always happy to take questions from your, your listeners and from anyone else in the community. And I agree that the talk that we had today just about audibility and how important it is to people will be a great foundation for talking about out your lens is different and can provide people with the great value and in addition to a great outcome,

Dr. Mark Syms  32:00  

So if you’re just watching this episode, and it’s released, you’re gonna have to wait for his next episode. If you’re watching this retrospectively, go ahead and jump ahead to Drew’s next episode on here. Again, this is Dr. Drew Dundas. He is the Chief Technology Officer of Earlens. And again, thanks for coming. This has been a great conversation. 

Dr. Drew Dundas  32:18  

My pleasure. I look forward to chatting again soon.

Dr. Mark Syms  32:21  

Thanks Drew.

Outro  32:24  

Thanks for tuning in to the ListenUp! podcast. We’ll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get updates on future episodes.

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